How an Animal-Based Diet Changed my Life – by Lillie Kane

The Hypercarnivore Diet & Feeling Your Best – Interviewing Lillie Kane | The Hart of Health Podcast E45

We had the priviledge of interviewing Lillie Kane about her hypercarnivore diet for The Hart of Health podcast. We had a lot of fun recording the podcast and hope you enjoy listening to it.

Here is the YouTube version of the podcast:

Joané Hart  0:01  

Hey, everyone, on today’s podcast, we’re interviewing Lillie Kane. She’s a very interesting person in the animal-based community. And we are very excited to interview her today.

Jonathan Hart  0:14  

Yeah, I’ve heard about her for quite a while now. And, yeah, I think we’re going to agree on a lot. We seem to have a lot in common. And I think there’s definitely a kindred spirit with the way we look at things and the way she does things. And so, it’s gonna be very interesting to see where we’re similar and see where we may differ a little bit and hopefully learn a little bit from each other. And, yeah, it’s gonna be a good interview.

Joané Hart  0:40  

Yeah, hope you enjoy the show. 

Just for those people who don’t know… a lot of people have heard of a carnivore diet, but what is a hyper carnivore diet?

Lillie Kane  0:49  

So, I started using hypercarnivore because I had guests on my channel like Dr. Ken Berry, Dr. Sarah Zaldivar, and others who started using the word hypercarnivore. I’ve also heard Ken Berry use the word super carnivore. And I wasn’t entirely sure what that meant. But if you just type into Google, “What is a hypercarnivore”, it’ll say that it’s an animal whose diet is 70% or more animal foods. So, I like saying that because when I was saying that I was eating carnivore, then I would have people ask me questions like, “Well, do you ever use seasonings” or “You’re not allowed to have coffee” or “You can’t have…” and like trying to say like, carnivore meant zero plants. And I honestly don’t care what you want to call me. You want to call me keto, you want to call me paleo, whatever you want to call me, I call me Lillie Kane. So, I just eat the foods that make you feel the best. But for the sake of people being able to feel like they’re part of a community, or understand that, yes, I don’t eat salads every day. So I’m not going to be eating like a vegan diet. So I started using hypercarnivore. Just because I do eat a lot of meat. Again, it means 70% or more animal foods. So for myself, about 95% of my diet currently is animal foods. And then the rest of the foods come from the plant kingdom. I think it’s even different from if people hear about keto, because I even will eat things like a sweet potato, I’ll eat things like fruit. So I personally don’t care if I’m in a state of ketosis. I also have a lot more protein in each meal. But I think even if I were to test my ketone levels, I probably wouldn’t be in a state of ketosis after each of my meals, because I eat so much protein and not enough fat. So yeah, that’s kind of what a hypercarnivore is. It’s like, you eat a lot of meat. It seems counterintuitive to what you would think… “hyper” would mean a more extreme carnivore. And maybe that would mean beef only. But I didn’t make up the word. I didn’t make up a definition. I also think it should be called a hypo, or a semi-carnivore, or just animal-based, but I just was using the word that other people I’ve been seeing online use as well.

Joané Hart  2:51  

I definitely think hypercarnivore is a great way to describe it, because the first time I heard it was on your YouTube channel. And then I Googled it and I thought, “Oh, this is perfect. This describes the way I eat too”, because I always say animal-based and I feel like people don’t always understand what that means. So they either think you’re fully carnivore, even though we do eat some fruits. So I thought hypercarnivore was actually a really nice way to phrase it. Because if you think about it, whether you’re carnivore or hypercarnivore, it all falls under the animal-based umbrella, but I just liked how specific it was.

Jonathan Hart  3:31  

Animal-based almost feels like it’s just a jab at plant-based.

Lillie Kane  3:33  

Kind of, right? Also, people will say “I thought you just started saying you’re hypercarnivore because you’re hyper, I’m very excited that they’re like “You’re a hyper carnivore”.

Joané Hart  3:46  

That makes sense. I’m gonna say the thought actually also crossed my mind because you always seem happy and you have so much energy and I thought, “Well, it actually suits you, the term.”

Lillie Kane  3:58  

I do get a lot of kickback. I do get a lot of people who will leave messages like “Stop trying to make things up. Hypercarnivore is not a real thing”. Like, I did not make up the definition. But no matter what I would call myself, like if I was saying I was carnivore, people had a problem with that. I was saying it was keto, people had a problem with that. So at the end of the day, you know, people can call me whatever they want to call me. I think that sometimes, when we put the label on what we eat, it can trap us and put us in a box where we feel like we have to only eat these foods. And if someone asks, well, what does a hypercarnivore diet mean to you? Then we can. I’ve started doing it where I interview guests on my channel where I start asking them, “What is a carnivore diet?” And they all have a different answer. And I’m like, that’s what I’m talking about. Nobody knows.

Joané Hart  4:39  

Yes. And then people get very critical. So if they see something that they don’t think is part of a carnivore diet online, they just criticise so much and say, “Oh, you’re not really carnivore, because you do this or because you add seasoning to your food” and I just think it’s so unnecessary. And I’ve even seen some people where maybe on their Instagram handle it said “carnivore” in their name, they just decided to change it because people kept criticising them for trying other foods or having anything that contained plants. So that’s been quite interesting. I’ve been noticing that a lot recently.

Lillie Kane  5:20  

Yeah, I made a video last year with the 10 reasons why I don’t eat the carnivore diet. And it was just so surprising to me how many individual DMS and messages I was getting from people saying that exact thing where they’re like, I seriously couldn’t relate more to the fact that so many people have been saying, like, coffee isn’t carnivore or something like that. But the majority of people who I know who are even carnivore influencers drink coffee. And I don’t drink coffee, just because I mean, like we already said, I’m hyper. If I were to drink something like carrot juice every day, that would definitely not be carnivore, but coffee gets the pass. So I think it just gets confusing. And I don’t want to make things more confusing. If people are like, hypercarnivore confuses me even more, you know, I just say “Eat foods that make you feel really good.” I tend to think that that, for me, is a lot of meat. And then whatever else after that is low inflammatory. But also on top of that, do I like to think of things as just weighing up the pros and cons, because if someone has the pro of eating apple pie with their kids, and it’s their birthday, I had even people reach out to me saying, I never thought that I could eat apple pie with my kids because otherwise, I was going to live a short life when it’s like, if the pros outweigh the cons… Yes, eating apple pie every single day, it’s probably not going to help you do very good, you’re probably not gonna look very good. You’re probably not gonna smell very good. But if you have apple pie, and you’re gonna create this beautiful memory with your kid, it’s a birthday. I say, “Okay, well, there the pro outweighs the con of maybe not feeling the best that day.”

Joané Hart  6:55  

Yeah. I always like to ask: “is it worth it?” So if it’s worth it for you to eat it, then go ahead. You have to decide for yourself if, you know, a particular food has a certain side effect on your body and you’re willing to take the hit just for that one time. So maybe if your skin will break out, but you’re happy to deal with the breakout, just to have that memory with your kid, that is your choice. Like if it’s worth it to you, that is your choice. I think Paul Saladino said this long ago, like when I first started watching his videos, he said that it’s all about what is the highest quality of life for you. And then if you do want to eat something, but that’s going to be what is going to make your life better in that moment, then you go for it. So I loved that from the start. So I’ve always kept that in mind.

Jonathan Hart  7:50  

Yeah, I definitely feel like everyone needs to try and avoid being dogmatic and proselytising to other people. Because obviously, it’s a very human instinct to want to sort of create this uniformity. And we’re all on the same page. And we’re all doing exactly the same thing. But we have to be a little more accepting, a little more understanding. Other people will have other viewpoints and other ways and things will be worth it for them and not for you. And so, I think it’s very good to sort of let people be and sort of just let people know what you’re doing. And if they want to learn more, keep telling them, but you know, it’s not like you need to force it, and say “This is how you have to eat and you have to X, Y and Z”.

Lillie Kane  8:31  

Right? Well, even on my videos too, I never say things like “You need to start eating this”, like “you need to eat at 6am.” “You need to eat 25 grams of protein” like no, it’s like, “This is what I’m doing”. And it does get really tough, because obviously, like I want to help as many people as possible, but in the same sense, I understand that some people are just going to try to copy and mimic what I’m doing, which I don’t want people to do either because unless you’re five foot two, 10 from the US with my genes and my background with my history with my medical blood type and all these things, no one’s going to be exactly the same. And we’re not going to get it from the same farm. We’re not going to get it from the same soil. There’s so much that goes into health and it can get confusing, but I think that, for me, part of the fun in life is the challenge and going through these different confusions to find more truth. 

Joané Hart  9:25  

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, you can inspire people and they can try what you’re trying if they’re inspired by you. Well, for instance, I’ve been eating fruits with the meat and everything, and I also have some goat’s dairy. And then I was watching one of your videos and I was like okay, well you mainly eat berries. And I thought, well that’s a good idea… that I still have fruit but just go to berries and stop eating some of the higher-sugar fruits because I do want to transition to a lower-sugar diet, just because I have PCOS, and you tend to get insulin problems. And so, I’ve been finding it a bit daunting, just cutting out everything. So I thought, “okay, maybe starting with just berries will be a good transition”. So I do think it’s good if people can get inspiration from what you’re doing.

Lillie Kane  10:23  

Yeah, well, and I personally don’t care what I don’t care what kind of fruit it is, I don’t even care if it’s a high-sugar fruit, I just don’t have access to good quality fruit. So here where I live, all the fruit in the grocery stores is rotten. It’s mould. It’s shipped from Nicaragua, Guatemala, so it’s been picked like a month old. And so, if I had a fruit tree in my backyard, if I had a vegetable garden, if I had fresh produce, I know it wasn’t sprayed with glyphosate, Roundup, herbicides, pesticides, all those different kinds of chemicals that impact my gut microbiome. And for me, I also think they’re quite a bit of money in comparison to all the vitamins and minerals I can get from meat. For me to spend $2 on an avocado when I could get half a pound or like a pound of beef for closer to the same price. It’s like, the value to me is just not there. But specifically for people if they have things like PCOS, fatty liver disease, obesity, diabetes… I would try to have less sugar. But I’m very active. I think if I had some grapes, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal. But I just don’t have access to that kind of quality foods. And whatever food it is, it’s beef, if it’s eggs, but if it’s fruit, I just want to have the best quality of these foods.

Jonathan Hart  11:31  

Yeah, we’re quite lucky in South Africa that we actually export to a lot of countries. So we get a lot of farmers that grow some really good quality stuff. Yeah. And you can get it pretty fresh, but yeah, even now more recently, I’ve tried to be more conscious of where the fruits are coming from and try to be more seasonal. So yeah, I don’t want to put a label on it. But I’m kind of a seasonal carnivore where, in the winter, I’ll have like zero fruit because there’s no real fruit in winter, supposedly. And then I’ll try to eat the fruits that are seasonal and local, and like freshly harvested and from the farmers market or from whatever I can get.

Joané Hart  12:10  

I like the seasonal idea.

Lillie Kane  12:11  

Me too. And I think even just like innately, I don’t know if you guys experienced this either, But right now, in the summer, or I don’t even know it’s summer where you are. (winter). Yeah. So right now, for us, it’s summertime, and I’m just so hot. And I’m thirsty. And I’m just craving something sweet, something juicy, and I want fruit now. Whereas in the wintertime, I’m like, give me like a hot stew, give me like a crock pot roast or something warmer and salty. But I can just see like in the summer, how much I’ve been wanting more fruit versus in the wintertime, I just really don’t care for it as much. 

Joané Hart  12:46  

I think it’s good to listen to your body then. And it just shows you that instinct with the seasons changing, like what you actually crave and want. And then it makes sense to have fruit. Because often in summer, you’re more active as well.  You’re outside more, you’re in the sun more. And then you can also have more of it. And then in winter, like I also crave a lot less fruit in winter. So that’s quite interesting. 

I also wanted to know about your muscle-building journey, because I love weight training. And I know you’ve been trying to build muscle. And I just want to know how that’s going. And I know you’ve posted about people thinking like, “oh, you can only build muscle when you have carbs.” And I just want to know what your experience has been with a hypercarnivore diet and building muscle.

Lillie Kane  13:43  

When I was in college, I was a track athlete. So that was where I was really more talked about nutrition and what to do to build muscle and to be fast. And to have the best performance race, you want to have lots of pasta and you want to bulk. And you want to have all those grains and carb load before race day. I really wish I would have known what I know now, obviously. So I could have compared and contrast it and see how my performance would have been different. But that’s what I was always taught: you want to carb load to build muscle to have good performance to be stronger. And then I believed that for a long time too, because when I first switched to eating more animal-based carnivore, hypercarnivore, I lost a lot of weight. And I think a lot of it was just water weight that I was holding on from having the glucose and the carbs. But I had a really hard time building muscle. And then I spoke with Dr. Anthony Chaffee, he’s a carnivore guy, and I talked to him just one on one like, honestly, I don’t think it’s possible for me to build muscle eating. Just me, like I think I do need some carbs. And he goes, and sometimes you need to hear from somebody else because my fiance told me this over and over again, but Dr Chaffee goes, “Are you really putting an effort and putting in the work at the gym? Are you really maxing out? Are you really pushing yourself?’ And that’s where I reflected and thought “okay, I know if I rated my myself on a scale from zero to 10, 10 being I put max effort, I’m sweating, I am like, I couldn’t move another muscle up, I tried.” No, it was definitely like a three. When I started rating myself and really asking myself, “How much am I putting in at the gym?”, that’s where I saw the biggest muscle gain, but then also adding in more food. And not carbs, just adding in more food. And because that’s the two things that we need to build muscle, we need food, we need to move our bodies. So yes, it was just a gradual process. That definitely doesn’t happen in like a week. Some people will say, “If I do this exercise protocol, then when will I have the muscles like?” Well, the goal is to continue doing this forever. Because then if you just do it for a month, and you build the muscles, if you don’t continue, you’re gonna lose it, you’re gonna have to start all over again. So I think that it takes a lot of time, but adding in more food slowly over time, and then raising yourself and really bringing the intensity and the last two reps are the most important.

Joané Hart  16:08  

Yeah, that’s quite interesting. I’m quite looking forward to training even harder, like once I’ve recovered after the baby is born. Because right now, I can’t train as hard as I used to. But I just loved seeing that. When I first heard you speak about building muscle, and I think he also said to you, like “Eat muscle to build muscle” with the whole eating meat thing. And it just made me so excited. I was like, one day, I’m gonna go hard on training like that again. I’m still doing weight training. 

Lillie Kane  16:43  

When are you due?

Joané Hart  16:44  

15 September, so soon.

Lillie Kane  16:48  

First one? Yes.

Joané Hart  16:52  

Yes, there are like seven more weeks to go roughly. But we’re excited. But you know, I’m gonna be one of those people that straps the baby to their chest, and then does squats like that, and incorporates the kid in the weight training. But we will train. That’ll be fun.

Lillie Kane  17:11  

That’s awesome. Then you can make a podcast about how you’re using baby weight to build muscle, that’ll be great.

Joané Hart  17:19  

That’ll be a fun one. Well, he’s studied human movement science. So he’s super knowledgeable about exercise and training. So it’s kind of like living with a personal trainer. So I quite like it. So I can ask him questions, like any time, and he checks my form. And that’s, I don’t know, I don’t want to abuse it. But it is nice to have him here.

Jonathan Hart  17:43  

So the benefits of being married to me. Yeah.

Lillie Kane  17:49  

Like my fiance, too. He knows. He takes us through the whole workout. People ask me: “What’s your workout schedule like?” I don’t know. Ask Bryce.

Joané Hart  17:57  

Well, it’s been working. So yeah, my next question, and Jonathan wanted to know this, is: Have you been experimenting with raw organ meats?

Lillie Kane  18:14  

I do not experiment with raw organ meats. I’ve tried heart and kidney and liver and I’ve tried all that. I mean, from bison, from elk, from deer, from lamb, from beef, from pigs, from chickens. I’ve tried a bunch of different kinds from a bunch of different animals. But I did try raw liver one time and honestly, it was just so disgusting. I think anybody online who is saying it tastes delicious, I don’t know about that. It’s like if you cook it too much, it becomes very rubbery and not good at all. But it’s perfect if you just sear it. I also think just like my mind around it. It’s kind of like a weird thing we’re not used to because I used to think you absolutely have to cook your eggs. I would never eat a raw egg. Now, I will absolutely eat a raw egg. So I do think it does take more of a mental game than actual like, it might not taste that bad. But I do not do raw organs. Do you guys?

Joané Hart  19:05  

He does. He actually quite liked the raw liver. He’s been starting to eat that lately.

Jonathan Hart  19:12  

For me, it’s like sashimi with a different flavour.

Lillie Kane  19:15  

You add salt? 

Jonathan Hart  19:16  


Lillie Kane  19:17  

Okay, maybe if I added salt, it would do differently.

Joané Hart  19:20  

I tried a piece of it. And I just thought “no, this is not for me”. And I was also pregnant at the time, so I thought, maybe in the future, I’ll give this another try. But for now, no. But I have been struggling to eat organ meats. I do take organ supplements. I take liver supplements. I know you supplement with that as well sometimes.

Lillie Kane  19:42  

Yes. So do you have… is it slimy? I mean, it’s got to be slimy and cold.

Jonathan Hart  19:49  

The first bite is always intense because you go from having no liver in your mouth to having a lot of liver in your mouth only. But then I find that like each bite after that, your palate has adjusted. And then it’s just almost like you can take that first initial, like a nice umami flavour from the liver, and then that’s quite nice. And then only once you’ve stopped eating it and you’re left with only the aftertaste, then you realise, okay, yeah, there’s kind of like a taste there. That is, you know, obviously not favourable for everyone.

Lillie Kane  20:23  

Does it ever have a kind of a sweet taste to you?

Jonathan Hart  20:27  


Lillie Kane  20:29  

I find if I don’t have liver, and then I have it for the first time in a long time, that it’ll have a sweeter taste. But if I have it back to back to back to back, it kind of starts to turn more metallicky and irony tasting. And to me, I just signal that from my body as like “you’ve had enough of that nutrition”.

Joané Hart  20:43  

That’s a good point. Yeah, I’ve definitely tried to overdo it where I’ve tried to have liver every day. And then for weeks, I just really don’t want it. So it’s better to just spread it out more.

Jonathan Hart  20:54  

Yeah, I tried to follow my intuition and just try to listen to my body. And the raw doesn’t really make a difference. But for me, the cooking is that extra step. And I just found that the less I cook it, the better I liked it. And so eventually, I was just like, “Okay, I save myself time. Don’t cook it. Just cut it up, put some salt on it.” Easy.

Lillie Kane  21:16  

Well, I have some heart right now that we’re going to have for dinner. Maybe I’ll try a little bit raw. I have been thinking about trying it raw again. But yeah, I mean, just even the thought of it. Sometimes I’m like “ooh”.

Jonathan Hart  21:29  

Oh, it’s just fun to experiment and all sorts of things. So I’m always trying to cut out other things, add new things, try things a different way. It’s always fun.

Joané Hart  21:39  

Yeah. Well, I heard once that if you don’t like a particular food, you should have like a tiny block of it every day for like 30 days, and then maybe you’ll probably start to either like it or just be okay with eating it. So I thought maybe that would be the strategy one day. Just eat like a tiny block of raw liver every day just to get the taste and then see if, over time, I warm up to it.

Jonathan Hart  22:04  

That’s the worst part of it. The first little block.

Lillie Kane  22:08  

Yeah, well, I’m pretty tied between whether I think people have to have organ meats or not. I don’t think people have to have organs to be healthy. I do think that someone’s eating a more limited diet and they’re not having as many fruits, as many veggies, even if they’re not having like, for instance, I have salmon, sardines, pork, chicken, like I have a bunch of different kinds of animals in my kind of diet too. So I think if I was having very limited animal variety that I would definitely want to consider having organs and eating nose-to-tail, having the blood, having the bones, having the organs, having the milk of the cow, but having the whole animal. But yeah, I guess I don’t know what my full thoughts are if people should have them all the time or how often. I think that if someone really hates the taste, there are so many other foods out there. Eat eggs, eat beef, eat something else that can give you the same nutrition. I don’t want people suffering and just like gagging down their food. That doesn’t seem like a very fun life. 

Jonathan Hart  23:10  

No, we sort of say “Organs are a good idea but if you’re not going to eat them as is, then rather try and supplement if you want to get the benefits from eating them.” 

Joané Hart  23:23  

For me, because I tend to deal with skin problems because of the PCOS and I know vitamin A can be very beneficial for that. That’s like the only reason I really want to eat more liver is to see what it will do to my skin. But that’s an experiment for another time. Not now.

Lillie Kane  23:42  

The vitamin D can help too, I would think

Joané Hart  23:42  

Yeah, and Dr Sarah Zaldivar, like I heard her say that if you have a lot of vitamin A, but not enough vitamin D, that can make your skin break out. And if you have a lot of vitamin D, but not vitamin A, that can also make your skin break out. So I thought something like liver or egg yolks is actually quite perfect because it has both.

Lillie Kane  24:06  

Yep. Well, you guys probably have, I don’t know where I would think you have more sun where you are. But for us specifically where I live in the US there, it’s called the 36th parallel. Well, we’re above the US, at a certain point, we actually don’t get we only have the vitamin D UV that actually absorbs from October to March and the rest of the year. No opposite, March to October. And then the rest of the year, if the chickens aren’t getting the sunlight, they’re going to have less vitamin D in their egg yolks than if they were out in the sun all the time. Same thing with any animal that would have a liver that if they’re not getting exposure to vitamin D, they would have less vitamin D in the liver. So yeah, you guys are lucky because you guys have some quality stuff.

Jonathan Hart  24:57  

Yeah, we’ve got some pretty intense sun. So I was watching the other day and I saw that you said that someone told you that you should eat junk food again, just to let you know how good you have it, just to sort of create that contrast. And I was sort of wondering, what did you think about that logic now that you’ve had some time?

Lillie Kane  25:21  

So the person who actually asked me this, it was a guest I interviewed over a year ago. And he had asked me at the time, he was actually, it was very interesting, this young man from Canada was actually testing different diets. And he was having doctors go with him and track his mind, track his exercise performance, track his blood, do all these different markers of health. So he did vegan, then he did keto, then he did carnivore. And he said that even because… he wasn’t trying to lose weight, he wasn’t trying to heal autoimmune, he wasn’t trying to help with mental health, he was just literally a healthy guy just trying to test and see what was the best, most optimal diet. And he found that he was like, “I really do think that carnivore makes me feel the best and have the best mental clarity, less stomach pain, like I just think it keeps me really full and satiated. And so, I really do enjoy it. But sometimes, I find that the longer I continue to eat this way, the more the benefits diminish, and I don’t appreciate how good I really feel. Do you ever feel like you just want to eat a bunch of garbage, so you can feel like trash one day and then you can appreciate all the good stuff?” And I’ve just straight up told him “No.” That was over a year ago. I was like, “Nope, why would I ever purposely want to put myself in pain?” Now that I’ve thought about it more, I understand where he’s coming from more where I do forget, but I did have various…. It’s not until people ask me questions like “What are the benefits you’ve experienced?” And then I have to think back “Oh, yeah, I used to have joint pain, I used to have acne, I used to have bad menstrual cycle cramps. But I still don’t really want to feel like trash ever. So I think I’m still sticking to my guns.”

Jonathan Hart  27:04  

I would do that, too. Yeah. And I was also thinking, you should tell him that if you really want to feel crappy again, you can do something like a cold plunge or a sauna. You don’t have to use chemicals in junk food to make you feel crappy. You can do something hard to make you feel crappy.

Joané Hart  27:23  

And then you feel great afterwards.

Lillie Kane  27:27  

Absolutely, yes. Or I mean, even where we are right now, it’s 105 degrees Fahrenheit. I don’t know if you guys are celsius and how that converts, but it’s hot. And just coming inside the AC. I’m like, “Wow, thank you.” But then in the wintertime, when it’s cold in negative 10 degrees, I’m like, “Oh, I appreciate the hot heat.” So it’s nice to have those changes of seasons to appreciate the good ones and the bad, but I don’t think I would want to do it with making my brain hurt, my stomach hurt, my sleep not be great, my face not look great. Yeah, for me, it’s not really worth it.

Joané Hart  28:01  

It’s not worth it. Now, I know you had some problems with dandruff in the past, he did as well. And his pretty much went away when he changed his diet and stopped using the anti-dandruff shampoo and just went a bit more natural with that. And so, that I found really fascinating. So I want to know, I wanted to ask about the dandruff situation. And I know your scalp was also itchy for a while. And what did you find to help the most, of that? Because a lot of people don’t believe me when I say that what you eat can have an effect on your skin and your scalp and your hair. And so, I would just love to talk to you about that.

Lillie Kane  28:46  

I also was the same person. I was like “No, there’s no way that my teeth yellowing, or my like crust, and when I wake up crust around my face, or my smell, like that is from food I eat. That’s just how a normal human being works.” But then, when I switched, I wasn’t actually even eating carnivore. I was just eating less sugar. And I was eating more keto. My scalp started burning like crazy. And I couldn’t figure out for the longest time why? And then, finally, my fiance was like “You have been putting these chemicals into your scalp for 15 years, no wonder why your skin was burning”. But I was like “But why is it burning now? It never has burned all these other years.” But I now realize “Oh, it’s because how I changed what I was eating when my scalp was clearing up. Now I’m putting something on there that doesn’t need to be on there. And it’s going to give me that fiery burning sensation. But even once I stopped, I was really nervous to try not having the dandruff shampoo too because when I would travel, when I would go to friends’ houses, I would bring the dandruff shampoo because if I didn’t have it for just one day, my dandruff would be out, so I was reluctant to try not having dandruff shampoo. But then I finally did it and it didn’t come back. But my scalp started itching. For a long time I was eating six eggs a day and I never thought that eggs were the reason why my scalp was itching. But the more and more eggs I had, eventually, the itching moved into redness going down further down my scalp, where I kind of had a feeling it was eggs because I was just like, we were talking about the liver, when you don’t feel the taste when it’s kind of not tasting well, it’s something in your body saying “please, no more, we were telling you, we don’t like the taste.” And so, I finally was just having eggs and hearing my body say it’s not good. So I stopped having eggs even though I was very nervous that if I didn’t have eggs, I’d be lacking so much nutrition because I think eggs are just such a superfood. But I mean, immediately a day, two days later that the burning and itching had just subsided so much. To this day, I still do have itching and I haven’t had eggs. For six months, I did try having some egg yolks here recently in the past month. I just really wasn’t feeling the taste of them. So I still haven’t been doing them too much. But the itching, I think now is more of a habit because I was itching my scalp for over a year and a half where now, if I’m stressed, it’s just like my habit to like do that thing. And I think other people, they may pick skin around their fingernails, they might rip their hair out, they might smoke a cigarette or something else when they’re stressed. And so I know that, now, I think that the itching has just become a habit to me. So I just reach for it whenever I’m stressed out. But that’s just something I think I have to work on more with my mind, less of the food. 

Joané Hart  31:41  

It’s hard to stop those habits. I’m one of those people that will play with their fingernails and do stuff like that, but from being anxious or stressed. Actually, I thought… because we watched a video about when people’s hair fall out, often, it’s because of having a tight scalp. And so, it was Paul Saladino interviewed this guy about hair loss, I can’t remember his name, but they were talking about how good massaging your scalp for like 10 minutes a day is for preventing hair loss. So when I heard you on a video saying you do that to your scalp the whole time. I was like “Well, at least you’re massaging your scalp by doing that.”

Lillie Kane  32:26  

I would actually think I would be creating a bald spot over time. So I’m glad to hear this because now I’ve been tricking myself every time I reach to do it. I’m like, “No, you don’t want to have a bald spot”. So that’s kind of interesting.

Joané Hart  32:38  

Well, yeah, maybe treating it more like a scalp massage instead of just scratching it is a better way to do it because it can be hard to completely stop something like that.

Jonathan Hart  32:50  

Yeah, well, from What I’ve Learned, he’s got a very good video going into detail about how people inject botox in these muscles around their head in order to relax the muscle and then that helps bring their hair back. 

Joané Hart  33:05  

And then yeah, they’d spoken about how good scalp massage is, so we’ve actually been trying to incorporate that just for fun, actually. Why not?

Lillie Kane  33:15  

Yeah, awesome. I like watching the What I’ve Learned channel, so I’m gonna look that one up too, this is great.

Joané Hart  33:21  

It was posted quite recently. You should definitely look at it. And so, what is your haircare routine? Like do you use shampoo on your hair? I showed him the video earlier about you using egg yolks on your scalp. That experiment was quite funny.

Lillie Kane  33:39  

Prior to thinking I was allergic to eggs, so obviously I wouldn’t be putting them on if I thought I was allergic.

Joané Hart  33:45  

No, I was wondering because I think that was like eight months ago or something. So I was wondering how things have progressed since then, in your hair care routine.

Lillie Kane  33:55  

So I have been using it’s just a soap called Everyone Soap and it’s just this very low toxic, low, minimal chemicals. And so, that’s the only soap we have in the house. So it’s the soap we use to wash our hands, to wash our body, to wash our face, to wash our hair, to wash our toilet, to wash our dishes. It’s the only stuff we use because it’s just one of the least chemical soaps. And that’s pretty much it. So I don’t do shampoo and conditioner. I just do the Everyone Soap and then wash my hair maybe two times a week.

Joané Hart  34:29  

Yeah, that’s pretty nice. I love that idea of training your hair, so you don’t have to wash it as often. Just because you end up putting so much on your scalp. Like I also tried to use a shampoo that doesn’t have a bunch of added things to it, no sulfates, nothing like that. Because as you also mentioned, you’re putting all these chemicals onto your body. So everything we use, like dishwasher, washing powder, everything is like a way better alternative, like whatever was the best that we could find. And actually, people will use fabric softener, but we use vinegar instead. And it works really well. But I was curious… like he stopped using shampoo completely long ago. 

Jonathan Hart  35:12  

Short hair helps. 

Joané Hart  35:14  

Short hair helps, it’s not long hair like ours. And Carnivore Yogi, you know her, she stopped using shampoo and her hair looks amazing. And I’m like, one day, I will be brave enough to try that experiment. I just can’t leave the house for two weeks. Because usually, like they say, your scalp gets really oily, and then it gets better. And I’ve seen a lot of people online do that whole no-shampoo thing. And like, I know she mentioned that sometimes, she’ll run apple cider vinegar through her hair if she feels like she needs something. But her hair just looks amazing. But she also wanted to stay away from all the chemicals. And I’ve always been very tempted to try that. We just have to do it when my mom is away on holiday because she can’t stand it if my hair looks oily. So I can’t see her in those two weeks.

Lillie Kane  36:05  

Sounds like you’ve given your mom a lot of gray hairs in a lot of ways.

Joané Hart  36:11  

Yeah, usually, like you know on Gilmore Girls, how tight they are, that’s me and my mom. We’re very, very close. She doesn’t like it when your hair looks oily and she won’t necessarily say much about it. But you just know, usually wash your hair before you go there. But I’m still very curious. And when he stopped using shampoo, he knew my mom would be the test to see if it worked. And she didn’t notice that. And she’s like, “Oh, his hair looks super clean”. And I told her well, he hasn’t been using shampoo for three months. And she was quite surprised. And so, she’s accepted that.

Lillie Kane  36:48  

You wash it with water?

Jonathan Hart  36:50  


Joané Hart  36:52  

Just not shampoo. And that helped his dandruff as well, because he wasn’t stripping the moisture from his scalp anymore.

Jonathan Hart  37:00  

Yeah. And the only soap I use is, well in South Africa, it’s like roughly translated, it’s called “farmer soap” 

Joané Hart  37:07  

Boerseep. It’s a tallow soap.

Jonathan Hart  37:09  

So, it’s a fat-based soap. Very simple ingredients, nothing really complicated about it.

Joané Hart  37:15  

Yeah, they literally make the soap using tallow and some sort of soda. And it’s like, our ancestors way back in the day came up with it. And I’ve actually posted about it online. And then people are like, “Oh, where can we find this?” And I’m like, “Well, I don’t know. This is like something that South Africans use sometimes. But you can find recipes for it online.” And I just love the idea of using just a tallow soap. And so, we use that.

Jonathan Hart  37:42  

Keeping it simple. 

Lillie Kane  37:44  

Yep. Simple and sustainable and simple makes you have freedom to do other things with your day.

Joané Hart  37:50 

Yes, I love that idea. I don’t know if you know who Tim Ferriss is?

Lillie Kane  37:55  

Four Hour Workweek 

Joané Hart  37:56  

Yes, but he talks a lot about simplifying things. And he said once he has a sign in his house that just says “Simplify”. And ever since then, I’ve wanted to get a sign like that. Because with the animal-based way of eating, it’s such a simple diet. And I’ve just found way more freedom in that. Because I’m like a binge eater by nature. Like I’ve been binge eating since I was five. But ever since eating this way, I don’t have the urge that much. So simplifying my diet was actually the answer. And just like eating more animal foods. It’s just so nice to not struggle with that. And I just really cling to that idea of simplifying things.

Lillie Kane  38:40  

Yeah, there are so many other things we have going on in the day. We have the kids, the work, the social events, the what do I wear, like there are so many things that we have to make decisions on in a day and even though they’re small decisions, it does turn into like decision fatigue, where it is nice that when I go to the kitchen, it’s not like “what am I going to eat today?” I know what I’m eating. That’s one less thing I have to think about.

Joané Hart  39:01  

Yeah, and when you go food shopping, imagine if you had to go through all of the aisles in the supermarket and just think “what am I going to buy?” No, you just go to the meat section, you just get what you need.

Jonathan Hart  39:14  

Yeah. And when we were overseas, we were actually overwhelmed with how many options there are for all the different types of foods you get. Like here’s maybe one little sort of shelf dedicated to chips, where in America, we saw that there was a whole aisle dedicated to chips. And I just don’t know how you guys make all those decisions because there are too many brands.

Joané Hart  39:36  

Because when we were there on holiday, we were like “Oh, we’re gonna go to Walmart just to get some snacks” because we went kayaking after that. And we were just standing there so overwhelmed. Like, what do you get? We ended up actually getting pork rinds. And that was before we were animal-based. We were like, well, this seems like the best option. We don’t know what chips are good. We’ll just get the pork rinds.

Lillie Kane  40:00  

Yeah, I have friends from Thailand or from other countries who they would say they go to the grocery store aisle, and they’re like, “A whole aisle for cereal?” It gets ridiculous. Yeah, we always did. I don’t go down this aisle, obviously. So it was just the other day we were at Walmart for, I was filming that video, I don’t know if you saw on Instagram, but the chips video. And I saw that they had these different cereals that were just like cookies, that’s cereal. Just cupcakes, that’s cereal. Just Skittles.

Joané Hart  40:33  

Yeah. And that’s what people eat for breakfast. And that’s how they start their day. And that’s just not good. I’ve watched Ben Bikman talk about how the first meal of the day shouldn’t really be something that’s carb-heavy, preferably protein and fat, because your insulin levels will just spike way too much. It’s better to just ease into it and then have carbs later in the day. And then if you think about if somebody has the cookie cereal, and that’s their breakfast, they’re just like hardly getting any protein. And it’s just spiking their blood sugar from the start. It’s no wonder people are insulin resistant.

Lillie Kane  41:11  

And tired all the time and unmotivated and depressed and on medication and gaining weight.

Joané Hart  41:19  

And struggle to concentrate in class. 

Jonathan Hart  41:22  

Yeah, when they’re younger, they misbehave. And we just say things like, “Oh, it’s the terrible twos or whatever age group they are.” 

Joané Hart  41:30  

Yeah, I do not want a kid that’s on a sugar rush all the time. Actually, something funny happened. So when I was at the doctor for one of my scans, the baby was moving a lot. So, they were struggling to take photos. And then, the doctor asked, “Well, did you have caffeine or sugar before you came?” and I said, “Well, I had some bananas”. But just because, the last time, there were ketones in my urine, and I got in trouble for that. So I was like, this time, I don’t want to deal with that. Let me just eat a banana before I go. And then, the doctor was like “Well, the baby’s kind of on a sugar rush”. And I thought that was so funny. And then, one day, I was feeling anxious. And so, I was like, I just want to eat something to feel better. So I had an apple and I had like a spoonful of honey because we didn’t have any other food in the house to be honest at that time. And then the baby started kicking like crazy and it hurts and she was so busy for like 20 minutes. And it started 20 minutes after I ate. So I was like, I put this child on a sugar rush as well. She’s still in my belly. And so now I’m just trying to be super careful. But it just really made me think. Like I never thought you can put the baby that’s in your stomach on a sugar rush just from eating like an apple and honey. But that was quite funny. I haven’t done that again. But it was a very interesting experience. And it made me grateful that the whole pregnancy, I’ve been like a hypercarnivore, eating a lot of meat and having fruit but not a ridiculous amount.

Lillie Kane  43:05  

Well, yeah, I feel like that’s I mean, having the fruit and the honey is like the best way you could ever have glucose. Otherwise, people are having the Snickers bar with Dr. Pepper and whatever else. And then you know, no wonder why nowadays so many kids are just having ADHD, having malformations, having different struggles already just plugging into the world. They already aren’t set up for success because of what they were fed and what they grew up already having. So it’s, I don’t like saying it’s sad because it is just what it is. And I don’t like feeling sad. So yes, you know, there are other options for people.

Joané Hart  43:45  

There are other options for people. I know this child, when she was younger, we went camping with her family, and she wouldn’t go to sleep and the parents couldn’t understand why. But at eight o’clock at night, they gave her a whole bottle of soda, like sugary soda and one that had some caffeine in it, and they were getting angry with the child not wanting to sleep. But I thought “but half an hour ago, you gave the child (it was like 500 millilitres, I don’t know what that is in ounces) But you gave this child so much sugar right before bed and caffeine”. It just doesn’t make sense. Like, parents can save themselves a lot of suffering by just not doing stuff like that.

Jonathan Hart  44:32  

It’s just very difficult to convince people that, you know, these things are actually an issue. I don’t know if you have any tips on how to try and convince people just to pay a little more attention to what’s going into their body.

Lillie Kane  44:45  

No, I don’t think that people have to be perfect. So will you ever see me drinking soda and chips and having candy bars? Probably not. But I think that it’s really tough trying to be a leader too, because it’s like, I want to show that no, you don’t have to be perfect. But at the same time, I don’t want to eat those foods. So it’s like, but I think the best first step for people is just to remove the processed foods and having whatever fruits, whatever honey, whatever, maple syrup, whatever vegetables, dairy, fish, eggs, meat, any real whole food, I think that sometimes, man or human tries to outsmart nature and thinks that we’re smarter than, if people believe in God, or however, we came to be smarter than whatever created all of these things naturally. And so, we try to put all these scientific chemicals in concoctions. And what really frustrated me when I first started learning more about health and nutrition is that I wouldn’t have never in a million years said that I’m addicted to sugar, because that just sounds so bad. No, I’m not addicted to sugar. But when you start learning more about how these chemicals impact your brain, alter your mood, and therefore if you’re having more depression, you’re having low energy that impacts and it just is a domino effect through your whole day. So now you have no energy. So now you’re going to work less hard. So now you’re not going to get the promotion at your job because your boss isn’t going to promote someone who has an attitude or isn’t happy and who is slow, and who’s not productive. And so, in the same sense, if you’re trying to attract a mate, find a man or a woman, then you if you have anxiety, if you feel like you’re not beautiful, if you just don’t have the confidence in what you’re doing, then you know, you’re not going to push and bring that and attract that into your life. So I think that food impacts all aspects of our life. It impacts our health or social situations, our mindset, our impacts everything. So I think just like recognizing, you know, we don’t have to be perfect, but food is like our batteries, and what are you going to plug into yourself to make you live your most abundant life because I like to live a life where I wake up pain-free, filled with energy, I feel really, really good. And if people don’t want to have that, by all means, that’s great. It’s a choice. Again, like you were saying people get to choose what they want their outcome and what they want their database. But I think instead of thinking, “Okay, I need to be perfect, and eat this perfect diet for the rest of my life.” Just wake up and say “Today, I want to get good sleep today, I want to exercise today, I want to eat a good meal today that makes me feel good today”. And just having the today kind of mindset is, I think easier to wrap our heads around.

Joané Hart  47:23  

Yeah, it definitely makes it less daunting. Like, somebody says, “I’m going to do this thing forever”. That’s usually quite scary and they give up. But if you maybe say “I’m just gonna try this for a day or two, see how it goes.” Or like I always hear people say they tried carnivore for 30 days. And then they felt so good, they didn’t want to stop. And it started with them saying it’s just going to be for 30 days, or it’s just going to be for a week. Because I think a lot of people don’t realise how good they can feel because they’re just so used to feeling bad. So sometimes, you just have to get them to the point where they try something just for a short period of time to see and then once they see the benefits, then they might want to continue. And it’s also important to motivate people in the way that will motivate them the most. Because not everybody cares that much about the way they look. But what if somebody’s very career driven? And you can tell them, “Hey, listen, try this and your focus might improve. And you might end up being way more productive at work because you won’t experience as often blood sugar crashes. And a lot of people do intermittent fasting not because of the health benefits, but just because it helps them focus a lot better and they can get more work done.” Maybe somebody is, you know, motivated by looking good. So you can approach them with that. For some people, it might be, your sleep might improve. Maybe it’s somebody who really struggles with sleep. So think, whenever you’re communicating with someone, just find out what they value the most. And you know, you can just give them information about… “Well, this could help you if you want to try it”. It’s like, you don’t have to, say you have to try it.

Jonathan Hart  49:08  

if you want to try it, and if you want to change, it’s a very important one.

Joané Hart  49:13  

I always like telling people “Do it as an experiment”, and then they seem to be more open-minded about it.

Lillie Kane  49:20  

Yeah, it’s tough because even like, I’m a younger person, so specifically people in their young, mid-20s, even teenagers, let’s talk about them, like to tell them like, “No, you’re in pain, right?” Now, if you would have told me, to approach me and said, “Lillie, you’re in pain”, I would have been like, “You don’t know me. And no, I’m not in pain.” And not that I hit rock bottom but I do think that a lot of people, unfortunately, are going to have to hit rock bottom to wake them up to realise, “Okay, I have to make a change”, I would just like for other people to not have to get to that rock bottom, where they’re paying that expensive medical bill, where they’re on these medications that are very hard to get off of, where they’re having to go to counselling, whatever it is, you know, I would, you know, I would like people to not have to go through and hit rock bottom, but people are gonna come to it when they want to come to it. So just lead by example. Just be positive, be kind, I think, like, even, of course, I get negative comments, people are trying to tell me, you know, giving misinformation about sunscreen or killing people, and then I’m like, okay, like, I just respond with kindness, because then it makes it a reflection on them and on their character, you’re gonna keep bullying me, you’re gonna keep being negative to me, whatever. Like, I can still live my day and live a happy day. You’re gonna mope and be angry all day over some random person you don’t even know.

Jonathan Hart  50:37  

Yes. And then they’ll always say, like, “Oh, you’re doing X, Y, and Z”, and they’ll give you zero extra evidence. They just say this is because I heard it, this is the way it is. And it is a little bit frustrating to get people like, you know, criticising without actually trying to back up that criticism even a little bit.

Joané Hart  50:57  

And you never know, maybe you’ll say something or you know, somebody you hear something on a video. And currently, they feel like, “oh, that’s misinformation”, but maybe down the line, their health deteriorates a bit, or they hear some other information. And they think maybe that Lillie girl had a point, maybe I was wrong. So it’s like, even just planting the idea in someone’s head can sometimes be enough. And I’m pretty sure with the number of people you reach, like enough people respond positively and are inspired. So it doesn’t really… there will always be people that aren’t happy with what you’re doing. I heard once “if you’re pleasing everyone, you’re lying to some people”. And I always liked that idea. So it’s like, just don’t try. But even if people respond negatively, it could even maybe have a positive effect down the line and just make them think about it a little.

Lillie Kane  51:50  

I like your approach and you’re saying more than the one I was told. My family says “If you have haters, you’re doing something right”. And I’m always like, “okay, and the times when it’s like very quiet, and I’m not getting any hate, I’m like, I’m not doing something right. Gotta keep being louder.

Joané Hart  52:06  

Yeah. I don’t know. I quite enjoy your videos online and how you approach them and like on Tik Tok, and you’re like, so happy and bubbly. And so, that I think is a good way to respond. If somebody does give you negative comments, to make this video where you just seem so happy and respond to them. It’s quite a good way to do that.

Lillie Kane  52:28  

I like to, sometimes, I’ll comment back to people if they’re like, oh, whatever they say, I’ll just respond “Why did you say that?” And I’ve had so many people have the time to like, think about like, “Why did I say that mean thing to this random stranger?” Hmm, it’s because I’m having a bad day, I’m reflecting on my life, I’m having a moment. So then I’ll have people apologise. And they’ll be like, “Oh, I didn’t think you were gonna respond. I didn’t think you were gonna read it.” Oh, please, I read everything.

Joané Hart  52:53  

Nice. Oh, what I do if somebody responds, and then you can see they want to argue, I just hand it over to him. Because usually, like, I’ll post on our Instagram and stuff like that. But he loves debating people. And he’s really good at it. And he’s just like that. I’ll be like, “oh, somebody commented on this post.” And then because we agree anyways on what should be said, then he’ll type the long paragraphs. And sometimes, you get into these debates with people. And I quite enjoy that. So whenever somebody’s like really being annoying online, I just put Jonathan on them. I’m like, “Ah, you take over. This was for you.”

Jonathan Hart  53:35  

I make an effort to try and get them to see some sort of logic. Yeah, 

Lillie Kane  53:41  

Good luck. 

Jonathan Hart  53:43  

Yeah, it feels like a failing effort. But I try anyway.

Joané Hart  53:46  

I just find it very amusing. So that’s the reason why I tell you to do it. He’s good at debating and bringing in facts and just coming up with really interesting arguments like “oh, but have you thought about things this way?” And you’re a good person for that.

Jonathan Hart  54:03  

Yeah, I am always trying to bait in questions. So I’ll say, well “Can you answer this question?” And then they’ll be like, “Oh, geez, I haven’t actually thought about things in that much depth”. Okay, then you can see that kind of like, they don’t have anything to argue about because they realise, “Oh, wait, I don’t know much about this. And I’m kind of just arguing from a bird’s eye view. And there’s a lot more complication in the situation.” And then they normally just sort of fizzle out. 

Joané Hart  54:29  

Yeah, I’ve seen you, convince some people to just start thinking about different things and thinking about things differently. It’s kind of fun to watch. Every now and then,

Lillie Kane  54:41  

There definitely needs to be people like Jonathan, who are taking the time to try and to put the information out there. Yeah, I give up on some people. I’m like, it’s not worth it to me. Yeah, there’s free content, you can look it up if you want to.

Jonathan Hart  54:55  

Yeah, I’ve given up on a lot of people too.

Joané Hart  54:59  

You’re trying at least for a bit. Like, yeah, you just really care about giving people the right information. So even if they reject it, you’re still gonna offer it to them.

Jonathan Hart  55:11  

I feel like everybody at heart is a little bit of a truth seeker. And when you feel like you’ve claimed onto a little bit of truth, you kind of want to share it with as many people as possible. But the one thing you gotta learn is that it’s impossible to get everyone to see the truth. 

Joané Hart  55:27  

Right. But I like the idea of just putting the information out there and hope it reaches the right people. Even for me, like we don’t have a lot of people that follow us online. But I’ve had people reach out to me who are pregnant right now. And then they feel inspired from what I’ve been posting about what I’m eating, because especially when people get through that morning sickness phase, and they’re like, “Listen, what should I eat? What did you do?” And just from sharing your story, and what you’ve been doing, it can help other people. So I’ve had quite a lot of women who are currently pregnant, and want to be animal-based reach out to me, and then it just feels really good. Like, whatever you’re putting out there, it’s gonna reach people who need the information. And I just really love that.

Jonathan Hart  56:14  

Don’t care about the haters.

Lillie Kane  56:18  

Right, the people who are ready to listen, they’ll be the kind ones, or they’ll be the quiet ones, and they’ll still be there. But then the other people, some people just aren’t ready to hear information. And I don’t even know if I have the perfect information or the right information but that doesn’t mean you have to be mean. 

Joané Hart  56:32  

Yes, or maybe it’s also like you say like Bryce will tell you things. And then it’s only when somebody else mentioned that later on that it really makes you think, you mentioned something like that earlier. We’ve had that so many times where Jonathan will tell me stuff. And I’m like, “Yeah, I know”. And then I hear it on a podcast from someone else. And then I come to him like, “oh, I’ve been thinking about this”, and then he says, “But I told you this months ago that you should do this”. Yep, yep. So maybe you just weren’t ready for it at the time. Or maybe it just wasn’t said in a way that made you really absorb the information and think about it more. So sometimes, you can plant the seed and then maybe they’ll hear it from somebody else and then really take it to heart. 

I just want to ask “Where can people find you online?”

Lillie Kane  57:21  

I’m on YouTube, Lillie Kane. I’m on Instagram @LillieKane_YouTube. TikTok @LillieKane_Youtube, Facebook, Lillie Kane, and I have a website that is just on all of those different platforms.

Joané Hart  57:35  

Nice. Yeah, people should really check it out. Like I love your Tik Tok videos and your Instagram posts. And it just really like often brightens my day. Your positive attitude really rubs off on people, I believe.

Lillie Kane  57:50  

Well, thank you so much. And it’s been so nice connecting with you both and good luck with the whole pregnancy. Last night, we watched Neisha Berry’s video with the pregnancy. So I was like, oh, like, right now, I’m like, you are a strong woman. You got a great conversation and the smiles and pursuing what you’re doing and spreading the good message too, so keep doing what you’re doing.

Jonathan Hart  58:15  

Thanks. You too. 

Joané Hart  29:09  

Yeah, you too. I look forward to seeing everything you do in the future and all the interesting people you’re still gonna talk to and interview and yeah, it’s gonna be exciting.

Lillie Kane  29:19  

Thank you. Good luck to you all. 

Joané Hart  29:21  


Jonathan Hart  29:21  

You too. Bye. 

Lillie Kane  29:23  



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